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Geoffrey Hinton, The Godfather Of AI: ‘I’m Not A Doomer. I Think There’s A 1% Chance It Will Destroy Us’

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Years ago, when people asked Geoffrey Hinton why he worked on artificial intelligence, he would repeat a line from J. Robert Oppenheimer, one of the creators of the atomic bomb: “When you see something that is technically sweet, you go ahead and do it.”

Hinton no longer says that. Instead, he now devotes his time to warning about the dangers of continuing the very race he helped set in motion. He admits that, to some extent, he regrets the work to which he dedicated his life. His transformation from the godfather of AI into a prophet of catastrophe marked a turning point for the industry. It happened in 2023, when he stepped down from his position as vice president at Google amid dire warnings. At the time, some viewed his reaction as exaggerated. Three years later, many have followed his lead.

Hinton, a 78-year-old British expatriate, is a computer scientist and cognitive psychologist. His driving ambition was to understand how the human brain works in order to replicate those mechanisms in computers. In 1972, he coined the concept of the neural network. The idea was to create a mathematical system that could learn from examples, gaining experience much like human neural networks do. At the time, few researchers believed in the idea. Nor were there datasets large enough for such algorithms to learn from. Then came the internet.

Today’s artificial intelligence systems were built on the foundations of his work. That has earned him the nickname “the godfather of AI,” as well as the Turing Award, the Nobel Prize in Physics, and Spain’s Princess of Asturias Award. With a résumé like that, one might be tempted to bask in success, accepting praise and millions. But that was not his path.

Hinton left his role as vice president of Google in 2023 so that he could speak freely about the risks posed by this technology. So that he could give interviews like this one, in which he predicts the end of journalism produced by humans, laments what he sees as the fascist drift of Silicon Valley, and warns: if Donald Trump wins the midterm elections, it will mark the end of U.S. democracy.

The computer scientist has been taking part in the Starmus Festival on Tenerife and La Palma, in Spain’s Canary Islands. It is on the former island that he speaks to EL PAÍS.

Question. To prepare for this interview, I asked the AI to suggest several questions. Some of them were good.

Answer. You did well.

Q. Do you really believe that? Then what is the point of a journalist’s work? Why won’t an AI simply replace us?

A. It will.

Q. When?

A. When it does your job better than you, and it seems that is not far off. AI may be better at interviewing, but people still prefer people in some contexts. It can extract more useful information from the person being interviewed, and maybe it can extract it in a form that’ll be more useful for the readers. In which case, the newspaper will fire you. But for television, people may prefer to see a real person. So it’s a pity that you are a print journalist and not a TV journalist.

Q. You just took part in a discussion with Steven Pinker. He is famous for optimistic theories. But when it comes to AI, you’re more pessimistic…

A. But I’m not a doomer. I’m not saying what [Eliezer] Yudkowsky and Nate Soares say: that if anybody builds it, we’ll all die. Because they talk about 99% probabilities… I think there is a significant chance. It’s more than 1%, so we ought to really worry about it.

Q. Okay. But you were among the first to say: “Watch out, this can be dangerous.” You left your role at Google in 2023. How has AI evolved since then?

A. It has developed much faster than even I thought. The idea that within three years these chatbots would be able to do cyberattacks like the one against Hugging Face… Even three years ago that seemed a bit like science fiction. The idea that we’d have swarms of agents that escaped confinement, figured out how to communicate with each other and had emotions, like when one of them learns to communicate and says: ‘My God.’ That would have seemed like science fiction even three years ago. It’s all developing faster than we expected. And we have… If you look at experts’ estimates of how long until superintelligence, there’s one very consistent thing: they differ on timing, but they all place it closer and closer.

Q. Executives at Anthropic and OpenAI have called for regulation and expressed concerns about how powerful their products are right now, just as they prepare to go public. Isn’t that a bit odd? Do you think their concern is genuine or is there a commercial motive behind it?

A. Okay. Some say they are trying to get regulation to make it harder for startups to compete with them. I think that’s nonsense. Certainly Dario Amodei, CEO of Anthropic [maker of Claude], is genuinely concerned about the dangers of this. He wants regulation not to stop startups competing with Anthropic, but to stop AI destroying us. In other cases it may not be so. Amodei’s concern is genuine; that was evident when he refused to allow the U.S. Department of Defense to use Claude to surveil U.S. citizens. Sam Altman initially said he more or less agreed with Amodei. But when the U.S. administration stopped using Claude, Sam Altman immediately said: ‘We’ll do it.’ So Amodei is willing to suffer significant losses for his principles. That’s how you tell when someone means it: are they willing to lose something for it? Some are not. Amodei is.

Q. In your view, what responsibility should companies assume in setting limits on these models and what should fall to governments?

A. It’s very clear there should be regulation. It’s very clear that companies can’t be trusted to regulate themselves. There’s a long history: if energy companies pollute, you don’t let them regulate pollution. And with drug companies, if there’s no regulation, things like Thalidomide [the morning sickness drug that caused severe birth defects] happen. There has to be an agency that says you can’t release a drug unless you can prove to that agency that it’s safe. We should have exactly the same framework: you can’t release a chatbot without first demonstrating to a government agency that it is statistically safe.

Q. But in this competitive, globalized world, isn’t there a risk that China will take the lead? What would that mean?

A. That’s an argument tech companies use to try to avoid regulation, and they use it all the time. China regulates AI quite a bit. I don’t believe they’re entirely honest in that argument. But, for example, when Amodei said they wouldn’t allow it to be used to surveil U.S. citizens, Claude’s sales went up and OpenAI’s fell. People quit OpenAI and went to Claude because Amodei was taking a stand. So it’s not clear that taking a moral stand against the worst uses of AI will slow research or make the company uncompetitive. When you buy a car, do you buy the fastest one or one that’s reasonably fast but also safe?

Q. Probably the second, yes.

A. It’s as if carmakers said: ‘If we pay the extra cost to install seat belts, we won’t be able to make the cars as fast, and people want fast cars, so you’ll ruin our competitiveness.’ That’s simply not true.

Q. As well as an engineer, you are also a psychologist. At this festival you’ve debated with anthropologists and philosophers. Is it important that people who build this technology have these kinds of debates — more moral and humanist discussions, not so narrowly focused on technology?

A. I think it’s very important. How society uses that technology shouldn’t be just up to the technologists. The humanities are needed to say how this should be incorporated into society. You need political scientists and the humanities, not just the engineers. Engineers are not very good at thinking about people.

Q. It’s important, but is it happening?

A. No. Basically, there are the tech bros who are racing to develop the smartest thing because they think they’ll make huge amounts of money. That’s the only thing they seem to care about. So [Jeff] Bezos, [Elon] Musk, Altman and [Mark] Zuckerberg don’t want to pay taxes; they want to make huge amounts of money and they want to have a lot of influence by paying politicians…

Q. They want to go to space and stay young forever.

A. Yes, this idea of avoiding death is simply unrealistic. And Musk is competing to do crazy things. Much of this going-to-space rhetoric comes from technofeudalism. You should read a book called The Nerd Reich. It’s about the history of the political ideology underlying Silicon Valley, which comes from some rather crazy guys; there’s one named [Curtis] Yarvin. For example, Yarvin, before Trump was elected a second time, said: ‘If Trump is elected again, what we should do is appoint a CEO to enter government and get rid of a lot of the government.’ That’s exactly what Musk did, right? They were following Yarvin’s instructions, essentially. And they are technofeudalists. What they believe is that it’s unfair to tax the rich to support poor people, and that what you should do is have corporate states where the corporation runs the state, workers are essentially slaves and the rich can do whatever they want without laws constraining them. That’s what these guys believe, and one way to achieve it is to set up something under the sea, or on an artificial island miles from anywhere, or in space. So Musk wants to go to Mars. He says it’s for the survival of the species. It’s really about going somewhere where society’s laws don’t apply and we can invent the laws we want. Yes, these are scary people.

Q. I see the talk with Pinker hasn’t made you more optimistic…

A. Yes, regarding what’s happening with authoritarianism, I’m very pessimistic. Musk is now putting huge amounts of money into the midterms, and if he manages to stop the Democrats from winning them, stop them from controlling the House, that’s the end of American democracy. It’s scary. It’s as scary as the 1930s in Europe.

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Anthropic

The AI Labor Apocalypse Is On Hold (For Now)

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There are three versions of Saint John’s Book of the Apocalypse, a text that never loses relevance and now seems to presage the impacts of artificial intelligence (AI).

One: the recent and terrifying prospect of death raining down from swarms of autonomous, AI-driven killer machines, in a reprise of Stanley Kubrick’s 2001.

Two: a sector whose impossible expectations are inflating the mother of all financial bubbles to levels that make the Great Recession and its grapes of wrath look tame.

And three: the end of work — a brutal reconversion and, at worst, the disappearance of millions of jobs, for the first time disproportionately affecting the best-educated, potentially pushing the global economy toward depression, unprecedented levels of inequality and a blend of technofatalism, resentment and rage (something that is already happening, by the way, but magnified a thousandfold).

Utopias and dystopias are storytelling machines. They spit out punchy headlines, fin-de-siècle lyrical flourishes and syllables swollen like storm clouds. But they often prevent us from seeing what is really happening: those hyperbolic visions serve vested interests. Most of these fears are being inoculated by the companies themselves or by the governments that shield them, who are thinking about power and the bottom line.

Manuel Castells, a Spanish sociologist, scholar of the information society and former minister, says that fear of AI “is legitimate and, to some extent, logical, because the risks are real,” but he told this newspaper that it is “suspicious” that the sector’s own companies “are the ones sowing those fears in the paperwork they file for their initial public offerings on the stock market: scaring people is one of the ways to make a fortune.”

“And it is even more suspicious that China, which is replicating frontier innovations in six months, does not seem to show the slightest fear of this supposed armageddon led by uncontrolled AI,” he adds by phone, fresh from a trip to China, dismantling the first of those nightmare scenarios.

Wall Street also downplays the financial crisis theory, the second catastrophic risk: “No, there is no bubble,” financial sources say tersely; “companies are investing exorbitant sums and at some point a bubble will emerge, as happens with all disruptive innovations, but for now both projected profits and actual revenues are solid.”

Markets are even pricing in lower valuations than they otherwise would to allow for the possibility that some of these companies may fail, the same sources stress. It may be that the AI moguls are pushing up yields on debt and thus helping to incubate the next crisis. They are piling up mountains of debt to develop the technology, including data centers that suck huge amounts of water and energy. But wars, inflation and central bank activism explain that spike in interest rates much more than artificial intelligence does.

When debunking those two possible catastrophes, you must pepper your sentences with conditionals so that reality and its accelerations do not run over articles like this one. But the end of work, the third rider of the supposed apocalypse, resembles Kipling’s poem If. It is full of shades of gray, threatening predictions, grim accounts — and, again, vested interests — with little or no support so far from that old relic called data, those dull official figures. Is AI going to eliminate millions of jobs?

For fans of short answers: in one word, no. Or better, in a concise phrase: at least in the short term, no. The long answer includes plenty of nuances. It depends on how fast AI becomes widespread and how companies and governments act. The halting and ambiguous answers about the labor market’s impact, in short, appear in the string of paragraphs that follow, with half a dozen authoritative voices starting from this point.

Impact of AI

Employment figures across the OECD are at historic highs, but workers are jittery. Surveys clearly show more fear than during the Great Crisis nearly 20 years ago, which wiped out millions of jobs. The International Monetary Fund estimates that AI’s impact will be felt in 60% of Western jobs. The major AI companies go further and, once again, wave the specter of those fears. Anthropic claims that in the West, unemployment could reach 10%, even 20%, by 2030.

Those figures have been common for years in countries like Spain, but they are typical of a depression elsewhere: there is a Japanese film, Battle Royale, that begins with social unrest when the unemployment rate reaches 15%. Bill Gates, Microsoft’s founder, says that in a world where AI delivers on its promises, people would not be necessary for the majority of tasks. And Sam Altman, of OpenAI, warns there could be “a significant labor disruption” as companies adapt.

The prevailing mantra is that white-collar jobs — held by the most skilled workers — are the ones most at risk. That is a new feature, compared with earlier technological revolutions. Also, recent graduates are the ones who will feel it most: the entry door to the job market is narrowing for young people.

But those claims ought to be seasoned with data, and there are not yet figures that back them up: AI created one million jobs in the past year and destroyed about 200,000, according to official U.S. statistics. A Stanford University study analyzing hundreds of thousands of job postings in 41 countries finds that companies that use AI most have increased employment by 3.3%. Some problems are detected here and there — in consulting, among programmers — but they remain more anecdotal than categorical. Not even in the most mature markets, such as the U.S., is there evidence that that narrative has begun to take on the cold charisma of statistics.

The labor apocalypse, then, is postponed for now. Machines may ultimately leave millions without a paycheck, but it is most likely not going to happen now. The steam engine took four decades to settle in: this time it will be faster, but we may still be talking about years; no one dares to set deadlines for that horizon. Yet the narrative has rooted so deeply in our societies’ psyche that we can ask economists, sociologists, technologists and even philosophers why, when a narrative sinks in so deeply, it risks becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The economists consulted are not exactly optimistic, but they avoid the darkest tones: to date we see computers and AI everywhere except in competitiveness statistics. Simon Johnson, Nobel laureate in Economics, tells EL PAÍS from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) that the effects will eventually be felt, but admits that for now the impact is more qualitative (task reorganization) than quantitative (layoffs). And that the consequences will depend on public policies: “In the end, the mix of AI and robotization will cause job losses, but the future is less bleak than it seems if the public sector and companies focus on continuously upskilling the workforce,” as some Nordic countries already do. “There is nothing inevitable about AI, although it is true that the decisions the tech sector is making are not exactly encouraging,” Johnson adds.

Juliet Schor, from Boston College, predicts that rather than mass layoffs we will see “reductions in hours worked” and “four-day workweeks.” And another Nobel laureate, Daron Acemoglu, sees dangers beyond employment on the inequality front — one of the economic maladies of our time: across the West corporate profits have been eating into labor’s share of income, and Acemoglu expects those numbers to worsen, with serious effects on middle-class discontent and the fragile health of democracies. A kind of existential crisis in which the risk, beyond some sci‑fi arguments, is that we become overly submissive to AI’s demands and that undermines the rule of law.

With Donald Trump and Elon Musk, we have already seen a kind of preview, with a tech magnate embedded in the White House and a billionaire president ready to help Silicon Valley in whatever it needs with the support of working‑class voters at the ballot box.

Adaptation

If economic history is any guide, the arrival of a new technology has never reduced overall demand for labor. There are no technological apocalypses: some jobs disappear, others are created and, above all, many of the tasks that workers perform change, forcing them to adapt, retrain and educate themselves to stay afloat in a sort of occupational Darwinism. That happened during the Industrial Revolution, with automation, with the arrival of computing and, more recently, with the last wave of new technologies straddling the last century and this one. Total employment and the economy continued to grow. But history does not always repeat itself: seven out of 10 Americans believe AI will make finding a job harder than ever, and one in three fears millions of layoffs.

The most advanced AI models are moving at full speed. Even mathematicians are scared. Yet in some professions once thought finished (radiologists, legal assistants) there is more work than ever before. “And still Westerners are sounding the ‘wolf is coming’ alarm. The Chinese do not, because they are optimistic about their future. But European and American societies believe we face a massive reallocation of resources that will cause political convulsions,” Castells sums up.

It is curious: Karl Marx dreamed of a society where machines did the heavy lifting and allowed humans to “hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon and do literary criticism after dinner.” The liberal John Maynard Keynes hoped for something very similar. Just when that might come to pass, fear paralyzes us: pop historian Yuval Noah Harari warns of the emergence of a “useless class” and the danger of nihilism; according to that narrative, the dystopia is not a future of Terminator‑style robots but of depressed humans.

Philosopher Daniel Innerarity forecasts a thorny transition similar to the Industrial Revolution, or perhaps to the early‑century technological revolution: “In some respects more radical, in others more promising, when low‑value tasks are automated, allowing resources to be reassigned to more productive, more creative tasks.” “The key will be regulating that transition so people are not left behind: it is not about halting this technology, but about introducing the right incentives to raise the value of work and avoid excessive automation,” Innerarity concludes.

AI is fiercely new, but those debates have resurfaced with every technological revolution. Automation and robotization have already hit the most routine work (in German car factories, for example) and produced polarization (in the U.S. Rust Belt, for example). Brad DeLong, from Berkeley, explains in his books that the previous wave already removed strong hands and the most automatable part of intellectual work, and he bets that AI will leave us with smiles (service‑sector jobs, for example) and roles to ensure human oversight of AI.

In Germany, robotization did not destroy jobs: there were no widespread layoffs, but there were more difficulties for young people looking for jobs. That is again the canary in the coal mine: rather than looking at aggregate unemployment rates, experts favor monitoring entry flows, especially among young people and in the most exposed occupations. There, the consequences could be serious, in the disruption of early‑career trajectories for recent graduates.

Andrés Monroy, a Princeton professor, says forecasting has always been a high‑risk profession, but it is even harder with a technology that is advancing exponentially. “One should treat excessively pessimistic biases with skepticism; earlier waves wiped out elevator operators and doormen and the world kept turning.” “But it is wise to take what is coming seriously, because it will affect all professions, all sectors, every one of us: AI will create and destroy jobs, but above all it will change the labor market from top to bottom,” this researcher adds.

Monroy points to the emperor with no clothes: “The greatest risk is that the AI economic model is overly centralized in a handful of companies. Excessive dependence on a tool we do not own is very dangerous,” he reflects. “Big U.S. companies are calling for regulation, but beware, because what they really want is to eliminate open‑source options — the model China favors — so they can keep the whole pie,” he warns.

Extreme scenarios, in short, have fully entered the story we tell about AI. Job collapse has not yet arrived, but the experts consulted agree on the state’s obligation to create safety nets. Among policy tools, some advocate slowing the change: China urges its companies to adopt AI without laying off employees, for example. The debate also includes the need to raise taxes on capital and lower them on employment. Some call for levies on data centers. And there is a renewed plea for Europe to do its homework — to invest and avoid falling further behind. The idea of a universal basic income has even been revived, something that a few years ago seemed an impractical utopia.

What do thinkers say about the future of work? U.S. sociologist Richard Sennett wrote a handful of books in the first decade of the 21st century depicting a hostile scenario in which structural changes in employment destroyed the pillars of human identity. He anticipated some of the nastiest twists of our current era of revenge and fundamentalism. He was often right.

In a conversation with this newspaper, Sennett agrees that a labor apocalypse is not in sight, but he does see increasingly vulnerable, more unequal societies, with a gap “between top‑tier jobs with multimillion-dollar paychecks and low‑level jobs with miserable wages.” Technology is the watershed: “Not only AI, but also that alignment we already suffer from with so‑called smartphones. It is curious because all these tools describe themselves as intelligent, but if we are foolish enough to use them badly it will be we who stop being intelligent.” “A very confusing world is coming. But from that confusion the narrative about what lies ahead feeds mainly on conjecture,” he admits.

Sennett was born in Chicago and lives in the United Kingdom, but he paraphrases a Caribbean proverb: the most certain thing is, who knows.

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La Agencia De Protección Al Consumidor De EE UU Investiga A OpenAI, Anthropic Y Otros Gigantes De La IA

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La Comisión Federal de Comercio (FTC, por su sigla en inglés) de Estados Unidos investiga la seguridad de los sistemas de la inteligencia artificial que desarrollan OpenAI, Anthropic y otros gigantes del sector y los riesgos que puedan presentar para los consumidores, según informes.

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Trump Apuesta Por Que Las Empresas De IA Se Autorregulen Para Evitar El Descontrol De La Tecnología

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Ante los peligros de la IA, Donald Trump busca la solución fácil: confía en la autorregulación de las empresas del sector para evitar que sus agentes digitales actúen de forma autónoma y pirateen sitios web y ataquen los sistemas tecnológicos de empresas y gobiernos como ya ha sucedido.

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